I am worried about hidden mechanics in comp mod.
Which new comp person ever reads a mod description?
Which new comp person ever starts digging on the forum?

Make a list or something and link it in the minimum need to know info, along with the rules so we can at least have a vague expectancy that people read it when they are new.

what kind of utopia are you living in where ppl read the rules?

DCDarkling says

I am worried about hidden mechanics in comp mod.
Which new comp person ever reads a mod description?
Which new comp person ever starts digging on the forum?

Make a list or something and link it in the minimum need to know info, along with the rules so we can at least have a vague expectancy that people read it when they are new.

I believe a list already exists, but I can't remember where I saw it.

But I do agree, when season 11 comes around, I would like it if there was a forum post made with every change that compmod makes, and that obviously that list shouldn't change (unless UWE introduce something bad) throughout the season.

The changes are here:

https://github.com/Steelcap/NSL-CompMod

I agree, we should make it more public on this website.

Potential ideas for comp mod after the season:

1) something new with lerk, either a new movement mechanic or alter the hitbox

2) change marine upgrades so it's not clear that armor 2 is the best way to go

3) change biomass needed to get spores

4) reduce pickup time of weapons on ground

5) is the shotgun spread at a good number? Possibly reduce spread so it's 9.5 instead of 9.

6) remove advanced metab

Altering hitboxes was an absolute cancer update, hopefully more lifeforms get their old one back. That is the most important thing imo. Especially because changing movement mechanics is not fun because you don't want to always relearn everything.

Well if I remember the introduction of gorge bunnyhop which was a new movement mechanic, everyone was quite happy about that. So I am all up for new movement mechanics (aslong as they are not restricting the old movement)

Mephilles says

Well if I remember the introduction of gorge bunnyhop which was a new movement mechanic, everyone was quite happy about that. So I am all up for new movement mechanics (aslong as they are not restricting the old movement)

Gorges were unfun to play with that terrible movement in vanilla and needed it, lerks don't. If it would be more like an extension to the existing movement though, it would be fine I guess. But don't change gameplay things for balance reasons please. We don't want to go the same route like PDT, do we?

If the intend is to buff lerks, change hitboxes again to their model seizes.

Home says

Mephilles says

Well if I remember the introduction of gorge bunnyhop which was a new movement mechanic, everyone was quite happy about that. So I am all up for new movement mechanics (aslong as they are not restricting the old movement)

Gorges were unfun to play with that terrible movement in vanilla and needed it, lerks don't. If it would be more like an extension to the existing movement though, it would be fine I guess. But don't change gameplay things for balance reasons please. We don't want to go the same route like PDT, do we?

If the intend is to buff lerks, change hitboxes again to their model seizes.

Personally, I like the idea of lerks getting a movement mechanic... its not a buff, its an increase in the skill ceiling of lerks. with the addition of a movement mechanic, you can buff them based off of personal skill instead of just an flat buff that everyone gets regardless of skill.

Gorges have bunny hop,
Skulks have wall hop,
Fades have Blink > Jump > Jump.
Lerks have flapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflap.... that is not fun.

Also, a lot of people disagreed with gorge bunny hop and insist it isn't needed even now (not really in the comp scene anymore I'll admit) I think a Lerk movement mechanic should be tried, if it works, great, if not then you can always revert and look at something different.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

@Deck Whats wrong with Advanced metabolize?

Kash says

Lerks have flapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflapflap.... that is not fun.

I strongly disagree. Lerk is the lifeform with the most freedom in its movement. For many people it is fun.

Also I do NOT have a problem with an extended or improved lerk movement, in fact I would like it if I think about it, as long as it is well made.

The two things I wanted to say was:

1. Do not change the movement for balance reasons. In Decks post it sounds like balance would be the reason they think about that kind of change. WHen you implement something like that, implement it because you want a better lerk movement and you want to improve gameplay. Balance is something that would need to happen afterwards when it plays fine.

2. Do not alter lerk movement but expand on it. Personally I have no interest after multiple years to relearn a lifeform from the ground up.

I am also with Deck in regards of Metabolize. Aside from balance I don't like the mechanic, it doesn't fit into the games basic idea of aliens energy pool. It should be a passive upgrade. Advanced meta has the additional problem of making fades heal themselves which imo is the same crap as vanilla boneshield (even though advanced meta is obviously better balanced...).

Also the shift key could very well used for a real movement mechanic.

Home says

Also the shift key could very well used for a real movement mechanic.

InB4 Shadowstep comeback XD

Home says

1. Do not change the movement for balance reasons. In Decks post it sounds like balance would be the reason they think about that kind of change. WHen you implement something like that, implement it because you want a better lerk movement and you want to improve gameplay. Balance is something that would need to happen afterwards when it plays fine.

I 100% agree with this, I don't think movement should be used to balance. I do think lerk movement is the most "free" but imo it is not the most fun or challenging. I think the addition of a mechanic that utilizes gravity would be nice. i.e when you move towards the ground you speed up, when you move towards the ceiling you slow down... the system is already in place to a certain extent, but I would like to see it expanded on. for instance, reducing the friction while traveling up towards the ceiling, and increasing the momentum gain when traveling towards the floor... or something along those lines.

On the subject of Metabolize/Advanced Metabolize, is it just that the fade can essentially heal small amounts while in combat that you dislike? or just the fact that having advanced meta allows the fade to heal up a little faster while away from combat?

I still think the idea behind shadow step is great, it is just not easy to implement properly.

I don't think an alien should be able to heal without a crag, hive, gorge or regen (except the little "natural healing" of course, even though I am not sure if it is really needed).
It is good that every lifeform got its own role, but everything must follow the same rules to be consistent. Consistency prevents the game from being a chaotic mess.

I really want to remove advanced metab, but there is always resistance to the idea. I wouldn't be surprised if people think it's needed late game to help fades. I do think a lot of battles happen around hives though, and I agree I consider it more on the side of the vanilla boneshield, where it's a healing buff away from a gorge, hive, and crag. It's not needed in the game and makes fades together really strong. You already have regen if you want additional healing, we don't need another healing mechanic. I hope more people agree with removing this. I do think advanced metab would be really important with the vanilla hitbox on the fade, but with the old hitbox, I think it should be removed.

The lerk movement mechanic idea I do want to explore. I think it's more interesting than reverting the lerk hitbox. I agree that it shouldn't ruin any current movement, it would just be an additional thing that could raise the skill ceiling. It could give lerks in comp an ability that would feel fast and fun.

What do people think about spores? Thinking about moving it to biomass 6 or 7, what are people's thoughts on that?

Also sg spread, is it at the right number? I like that the spread is a little more compact than vanilla, but is it a tad too weak right now?

Deck says

What do people think about spores? Thinking about moving it to biomass 6 or 7, what are people's thoughts on that?

Also sg spread, is it at the right number? I like that the spread is a little more compact than vanilla, but is it a tad too weak right now?

I can't comment on shotguns, because my aim is terribad. But the idea of moving spores to biomass 6 Is something i'd welcome. moving it to 7 seems a tad harsh imo, requiring a 3rd hive for it just seems a little much, its not exactly an OP-AF skill, I just think it comes into play a little too quickly.

In regards to Advanced Meta, I'm not against its removal, I'm just not sure fades need a nerf... and the removal of advanced meta is a nerf... it would lessen their effectiveness in combat later on, it would also mean not being able to remain relatively close to combat and instead having to retreat all the way to hive/crag/gorge which means more time going to/from important areas.
Put simply, I think the knock on effects of removing advanced meta aren't really worth its removal because some people think that its relatively weak self heal "doesn't fit the theme". If you can think of a way to balance the removal of advanced meta so that the impact of it being missing doesn't alter play too much, I would have no issue with its removal at all.

Kash says

Deck says

What do people think about spores? Thinking about moving it to biomass 6 or 7, what are people's thoughts on that?

Also sg spread, is it at the right number? I like that the spread is a little more compact than vanilla, but is it a tad too weak right now?

I can't comment on shotguns, because my aim is terribad. But the idea of moving spores to biomass 6 Is something i'd welcome. moving it to 7 seems a tad harsh imo, requiring a 3rd hive for it just seems a little much, its not exactly an OP-AF skill, I just think it comes into play a little too quickly.

In regards to Advanced Meta, I'm not against its removal, I'm just not sure fades need a nerf... and the removal of advanced meta is a nerf... it would lessen their effectiveness in combat later on, it would also mean not being able to remain relatively close to combat and instead having to retreat all the way to hive/crag/gorge which means more time going to/from important areas.
Put simply, I think the knock on effects of removing advanced meta aren't really worth its removal because some people think that its relatively weak self heal "doesn't fit the theme". If you can think of a way to balance the removal of advanced meta so that the impact of it being missing doesn't alter play too much, I would have no issue with its removal at all.

good points. We could try playing without it and see if fades can still be effective late game without it. Yes, I agree with spores being moved to at least biomass 6. I think the question is 6 or 7 at this point.

Kash says

it would lessen their effectiveness in combat later on, it would also mean not being able to remain relatively close to combat and instead having to retreat all the way to hive/crag/gorge which means more time going to/from important areas.

That is exactly the reason why I don't like it, the advanced meta fade is able to trick the healing mechanisms of the game.
If you want to heal without those things the game offers the regen upgrade.

In terms of balance I think there are enough ways to compensate for that loss.
You could for example make fade HP scale more with biomass or you could make advanced meta a passive ability only (what I believe meta should be anyway) that once it is researched, buffs fades HP a bit.

Also yes, spores should not be on Bio 7+. Bio 6 is fine.

I don't see why we can't try no advanced metab after the season in gathers and see if we notice something off. I like your ideas home of having a buff to fade's hp with biomass, we could probably easily change how the fade's health is changed with biomass that might go well with removing advanced metab. I dont' like your buff fade hp upgrade idea, but I like the biomass idea.

Let me know if someone knows something specific in the code we can change for the lerk to add a movement mechanic similar to what kash is talking about to try it.

Biomass 6 for spores seems like the safe choice, there may be some people that want biomass 7 or higher, but biomass 6 I don't think a lot of people will be upset with.

Can we talk about contamination too? I would really like seeing it removed, also are there any plans to make new Bio 9 abilities in comp mod yet or was that an idea towards UWE only?

I am still most worried about lack of documentation.
No, its never been good, and if a list exists its been outdated.

The gorge hop change IS a good example. It was changed.. good luck finding a description HOW to bloody do it.
I think I finally (much much later) came across a vid from one of the high div players actually doing it before I was sure, I was doing it correctly.

So whatever we change, please document it clearly and easy accessible.
The NSL can improve so much on this point.

what do you mean HOW TO DO BHOP
you literally just jump that's all you do
when you're referring to golden's gorge bhop vid then you're talking about the ADDITIONAL SPEED you gain from sliding sideways. it has NOTHIGN to do with ANY changes from comp mod, it's a VANILLA mechanic. you can just abuse that to gain more speed while bhopping...

Home says

Kash says

it would lessen their effectiveness in combat later on, it would also mean not being able to remain relatively close to combat and instead having to retreat all the way to hive/crag/gorge which means more time going to/from important areas.

That is exactly the reason why I don't like it, the advanced meta fade is able to trick the healing mechanisms of the game.
If you want to heal without those things the game offers the regen upgrade.

In terms of balance I think there are enough ways to compensate for that loss.
You could for example make fade HP scale more with biomass or you could make advanced meta a passive ability only (what I believe meta should be anyway) that once it is researched, buffs fades HP a bit.

This is pretty much what i'm saying, if advanced meta is removed, it needs something to replace it (I don't really care what it is that replaces it, i'm not a fade player :P ), without something to replace it, it is a straight nerf.

As everyone knows, I'm not a field player, so the impact of advanced meta being removed is something i'd never be able to judge effectively, if people want a straight removal to test its effects and then balance that afterwards, I'm all for it.

@DCdarkling

Comp mod change list - https://github.com/Steelcap/NSL-CompMod
Gorge Bhop - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKIbIA7Uixs

I kind of have the feeling DCDarkling is referring to how the change was done in the code which is pretty much that (I think):

- Gorge air friction reduced to 0.12 from 0.8
- Gorge air control increased to 30 from 8

Aaah but thats the point bauer.
I know its 'just hop'. I know the sideway sliding is in vanilla, amoung other speed tricks.
The point is DO NEW PEOPLE KNOW.

Also if noone points it out somewhere you can question stuff like:
* I go faster if I hop, is this the fastest the comp mod change can specific go?

@Kash, I know man. Old old news.


Point im trying to make, is that new players do not know where to dig for this info. It should be linked amoung the rules and that be that.

It says in the changelog that air friction is lowered for gorge, if PEOPLE are smart theyre gonna find out by looking at the changeLOG.
And if PEOPLE have any further questions about certain mechanics they have to ASK. What youre demanding is what many others already wanted - something like youtube tutorials to teach people stuff about the game...
If it's not that then I'm really not getting your point, because all you're talking about in your bhop example is a vanilla mechanic absued to give you an advantage with lowered air friction

DCDarkling says

Aaah but thats the point bauer.
I know its 'just hop'. I know the sideway sliding is in vanilla, amoung other speed tricks.
The point is DO NEW PEOPLE KNOW.

Also if noone points it out somewhere you can question stuff like:
* I go faster if I hop, is this the fastest the comp mod change can specific go?

@Kash, I know man. Old old news.


Point im trying to make, is that new players do not know where to dig for this info. It should be linked amoung the rules and that be that.

I agee it would be better to have a clear post near the rules that goes over the comp mod changes. I'm not sure if we are going to explain exactly how to do a gorge bhop or how you lose an ability when a hive goes down if you fall under the required biomass. We should have a visual indicator that is easy to see what the changes are so it prompts people to ask questions. I do think it's ok for a comp community to do a little digging on their own. Good point though. We have already discussed this and will consider making a comp mod area to look at near the rules.

Home says

Can we talk about contamination too? I would really like seeing it removed, also are there any plans to make new Bio 9 abilities in comp mod yet or was that an idea towards UWE only?

Contamination is something I've discussed with people. I don't want to change how it is now unless we added biomass 9 abilities for all alien life forms. I don't think that is really something comp should be doing, so I would rather have UWE do it. I think it would make the game have a better ending for aliens in that situation than contamination which is not as much fun at the end. As it is currently, I know people think contamination is too op'd and not fun. I agree, but I don't want to change it at this point because I think aliens need a super op thing to help end games if they get to biomass 9.

It sounds like the main issue with biomass 9 is contamination. So we might as well consider changing how long it takes to research that ability. We can probably set that to whatever we want, and give the marines more time to get the 3rd hive down if that is a better way to go. Let's discuss.

Deck says

Home says

Can we talk about contamination too? I would really like seeing it removed, also are there any plans to make new Bio 9 abilities in comp mod yet or was that an idea towards UWE only?

Contamination is something I've discussed with people. I don't want to change how it is now unless we added biomass 9 abilities for all alien life forms. I don't think that is really something comp should be doing, so I would rather have UWE do it. I think it would make the game have a better ending for aliens in that situation than contamination which is not as much fun at the end. As it is currently, I know people think contamination is too op'd and not fun. I agree, but I don't want to change it at this point because I think aliens need a super op thing to help end games if they get to biomass 9.

It sounds like the main issue with biomass 9 is contamination. So we might as well consider changing how long it takes to research that ability. We can probably set that to whatever we want, and give the marines more time to get the 3rd hive down if that is a better way to go. Let's discuss.

easiest fix for contamination delay would be to make it a researchable comm ability rather than a "you have biomass 9, you get this too". that way delaying it is as simple as increasing/decreasing the build time of the research.

Kash says

Deck says

Home says

Can we talk about contamination too? I would really like seeing it removed, also are there any plans to make new Bio 9 abilities in comp mod yet or was that an idea towards UWE only?

Contamination is something I've discussed with people. I don't want to change how it is now unless we added biomass 9 abilities for all alien life forms. I don't think that is really something comp should be doing, so I would rather have UWE do it. I think it would make the game have a better ending for aliens in that situation than contamination which is not as much fun at the end. As it is currently, I know people think contamination is too op'd and not fun. I agree, but I don't want to change it at this point because I think aliens need a super op thing to help end games if they get to biomass 9.

It sounds like the main issue with biomass 9 is contamination. So we might as well consider changing how long it takes to research that ability. We can probably set that to whatever we want, and give the marines more time to get the 3rd hive down if that is a better way to go. Let's discuss.

easiest fix for contamination delay would be to make it a researchable comm ability rather than a "you have biomass 9, you get this too". that way delaying it is as simple as increasing/decreasing the build time of the research.

Well I know nothing about alien commander because I just assumed it was a research ability. Doesn't make any sense that it's not to me. Yes, that is what we need.

Deck says

Kash says

Deck says

Home says

Can we talk about contamination too? I would really like seeing it removed, also are there any plans to make new Bio 9 abilities in comp mod yet or was that an idea towards UWE only?

Contamination is something I've discussed with people. I don't want to change how it is now unless we added biomass 9 abilities for all alien life forms. I don't think that is really something comp should be doing, so I would rather have UWE do it. I think it would make the game have a better ending for aliens in that situation than contamination which is not as much fun at the end. As it is currently, I know people think contamination is too op'd and not fun. I agree, but I don't want to change it at this point because I think aliens need a super op thing to help end games if they get to biomass 9.

It sounds like the main issue with biomass 9 is contamination. So we might as well consider changing how long it takes to research that ability. We can probably set that to whatever we want, and give the marines more time to get the 3rd hive down if that is a better way to go. Let's discuss.

easiest fix for contamination delay would be to make it a researchable comm ability rather than a "you have biomass 9, you get this too". that way delaying it is as simple as increasing/decreasing the build time of the research.

Well I know nothing about alien commander because I just assumed it was a research ability. Doesn't make any sense that it's not to me. Yes, that is what we need.

All of the commander abilities are unlocked via biomass without research. at biomass 2 you get bonewall, 4 you get rupture and 9 you get contamination.

But yes, for Contamination (and perhaps even Rupture) I believe a research cost and build time should be added.

Deck says

Potential ideas for comp mod after the season:
2) change marine upgrades so it's not clear that armor 2 is the best way to go

not sure about this, think it's fine for a2 to be this strong, maaybe just increasing the research time for it would create a larger window to do strategies. but then again increasing the research time just punishes other strategies since getting a2 is still one of the 'safest' upgrade paths after doing a different opening that's not just AL->a1->a2

Deck says

3) change biomass needed to get spores

bio mass 6 is the proper place for it

Deck says

6) remove advanced metab

coming from a comm this upgrade has a rather low priority, i'd really only get advanced metab if my lerks both died twice and all i had were fades. there is much better shit to upgrade at bio 5, namely umbra. but also getting upgrades for your whole team is a bit stronger especially if you still 2 lerks and 2 fades sicne they'lll probably have extra res for the upgrade.